Terroir and beer.

Discussion in 'Beer Talk' started by HenryAdams, Dec 17, 2013.

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  1. HenryAdams

    HenryAdams Initiate (0) Apr 22, 2013 New York

  2. herrburgess

    herrburgess Grand Pooh-Bah (3,053) Nov 4, 2009 South Carolina
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    As hugely important as it is summarily dismissed/ignored these days.
     
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  3. drtth

    drtth Initiate (0) Nov 25, 2007 Pennsylvania
    In Memoriam

    Not a lot of attention paid to terroir in the beer world since most breweries don't grow their own hops and/or grow and malt their own home grown malted barley. Rather they buy their supplies from one of a few sources that actually buy their supplies from many sources and do their best to homogenize what they produce by mixing, etc. This virtually guarantees the validity of the claim made in the article that what differentiates beers is not the origin of the hops but the skill of the brewer.

    So, bottom line, there isn't much evidence one way or the other as to the importance of terroir as the term is used in the world of wine.
     
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  4. WTKeene

    WTKeene Initiate (0) Jul 13, 2013 New Mexico

    On a more serious note, terroir definitely matters in craft beer, particularly in wild yeast ales and sours. The best example I've seen of this is at Jester King. Their sours have a very distinctive taste. There is a Cidery a few miles down the road from them (Argus Cidery) that also uses wild yeast. And their ciders taste like a Jester King sour beer. Even though it's an entirely different alcoholic beverage and an entirely different brewery, they both taste like Texas Hill Country. So yes, terroir matters.
     
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  5. HenryAdams

    HenryAdams Initiate (0) Apr 22, 2013 New York

    Yeah, I've wondered about terroir and yeast, especially when it comes to wilds/sours. One of these days, I'm going to tour through Belgium tasting farmhouse ales….
     
  6. WTKeene

    WTKeene Initiate (0) Jul 13, 2013 New Mexico

    Next time you trade with a Texan ask for a bottle of Argus Idalou Brut and a bottle of a Das Wunderkind from Jester King. The similarities will tell you all you need to know. And it's cheaper than flying to Belgium.
     
  7. JrGtr

    JrGtr Pooh-Bah (1,689) Apr 13, 2006 Massachusetts
    Pooh-Bah Society

    The times it starts to matter is when you're talking about real wild yeasts, or water.
    As others said, malt (barley) and hops are rarely grown by the brewery, and are not unique to a brewery, I can use the same basic ingredients at home that the big boys use.
    Water can make a difference, if they are using what comes out of the ground, think of all the British breweries, and some have very hard water, others very soft, etc. It comes down to what minerals and salts are in the water. However, even that can be approximated by distilling water and then rebuilding the mineral profiles.
    WIld yeast can be a way of showing Terrior in beer... and I'm not talking about inoculating with commercial Brett, Lacto etc. It's opening the windows and letting what's there do it's thing - Cantillon (and the other lambic brewers in Europe) Allagash in Maine has their Coolship.
    Mystic in Massachusetts is doing interesting things by isolating and culturing regional yeasts - from a blueberry field in Maine, a pear in Mass, etc.
     
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  8. Kurmaraja

    Kurmaraja Initiate (0) May 21, 2013 California
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    No one has really mentioned fruit, but that obviously plays a role. From the peach beers that Logsdon / Upright / Block 15 do in Oregon to Almanac's Farmer's Reserve to any number of other examples such as the aforementioned Jester King with Atrial Rubicite / Aurelian Lure / etc.

    I'd also add that there's an intangible meaning to terroir which seems to encompass the spirit of the place. And if you think of that loosely, you could possibly argue that there's something about the "terroir" of Vermont, or Maine, or Texas hill country, or San Diego, or Portland that lead many of their breweries to have a similar sort of spirit. Shared knowledge and shared inspiration. I wondered "how did Texas end up with two breweries making fabulous wild ales" in Freetail and Jester King. And then I visited the Hill Country and it seemed almost inevitable. What other sort of beer would you make here? Similarly in Portland you see how insane people are about food. Eating out is THE primary entertainment activity. And it surprises you less that Commons and Upright are making super food friendly lower alcohol beers.
     
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  9. marquis

    marquis Pooh-Bah (2,301) Nov 20, 2005 England
    Pooh-Bah Society

    There's still some evidence of it though as has been pointed out nowadays a brewer can get hold of ingredients from all over the globe.Water treatment nullifies the one time advantages which gave London and later Dublin their reputation for porters and Burton for Pale Ale.
    Yet many brewers regard East Anglian Maris Otter as the best ale malt money can buy , it's local and readily available.You see signs such as this in the summer;
    [​IMG]
    There are also hop growers who brew in order to showcase their products. And at one time the hop harvest in Kent was picked by London people on a working vacation so London beers used the Kentish hops.
    But history lingers on.
     
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  10. VitisVinifera

    VitisVinifera Pundit (855) Feb 25, 2013 California

    until a brewer:
    -grows their barley/wheat/whatever right there
    -grows their hops right there
    -gets their water on-site
    -completes all of this with a contiguous on-site brewery

    I will consider this an unanswered question
     
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  11. jtg5678

    jtg5678 Zealot (572) Nov 27, 2012 Illinois
    Trader

    It matters, but with beer so often using ingredients from so many different locations, it becomes difficult to factor it into the equation for evaluating a beer.

    In the beer world, terroir is supplanted by hop varietals and yeast cultures.
     
  12. mmmbirra

    mmmbirra Initiate (0) Apr 19, 2009 Italy

    There are breweries/farms here doing just that. Most aren't yet relying 100% on their own ingredients, but many are close and will be at what we call "kilometer zero" in a couple years.
    From what I've heard talking to the brewers, most are fairly happy with the quality of their barley and wheat but haven't been able to grow quality hops yet. One brewery is working with students from a local university to find the right conditions to successfully grow hops in a country that doesn't traditionally do so.
    Interesting to see how it all turns out in the end.
     
  13. 77black_ships

    77black_ships Initiate (0) Dec 4, 2012 Belgium

    It is debatable whether terroir exists in wine.

    Just to give two examples.

    “The study of soil composition and winemaking techniques across the Medoc region of France found that winemaking techniques, not soil, were responsible for the complexity of wine that is normally attributed to terroir.”
    Study from the University of Reims and Victor Ginsburgh of the Université Libre de Bruxelles

    “The distinctive Marlborough Sauvignon Blanc character is credited to winemaking and not to the soil of the region. In particular, the wine’s passionfruit and grapefruit aromas are also connected with thiols because of reductive wine-making.”
    Study from New Zealand’s Lincoln University.

    Presence of Eucalyptus and smoke taint are pretty much the only real examples of terroir influencing wine.
    It is possible that a soil devoid of minerals might lend a small mineral quality to wine.

    With beer, brewers generally use ingredients from all of the place, even if terroir would exist, you wouldn’t get a specific terroir unless if they went to obtain all of their ingredients in one specific place. Which is not even possible in Belgium for instance unless if you grow them yourself.

    If any beer does have terrori than it is certainly lambic. It is hard to say what the actual terroir is. Anyway most of it is nullified with the end product, choosing specific barrels & blending in lambic fromother brewers. Pure lambic does have a house character, blending seems to be more important in obtaining a certain taste. 3F Geuze has a distinct taste even when made using different lambic’s, it is blended to achieve a specific taste, lambic is chosen to do that.
     
  14. herrburgess

    herrburgess Grand Pooh-Bah (3,053) Nov 4, 2009 South Carolina
    Pooh-Bah Society

    The PNW would certainly seem to possess the ideal and unique conditions required to produce the type of hops that more or less single-handedly put the American IPA -- and U.S. "craft" brewing as a whole, for that matter -- on the world brewing map. The fact that anyone, anywhere can use these hops does not negate the fact that "a set of special characteristics that the geography, geology and climate of a certain place, interacting with the plant's genetics, creates" still exists and influences the development of brewing on both an individual and a global scale. Same could be said about Burton or Pilsen water, UK or Bohemian barley, or Bavarian hops and even beechwood. Not to mention yeast and the various "house characters" it tends picks up in any place over time.
     
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  15. rgordon

    rgordon Pooh-Bah (2,677) Apr 26, 2012 North Carolina
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    I think the concept "terroir" would definitely include water source as relates to beer. I've often read of "Burton" water being particularly choice for these local English ales- famous IPAs. True, brewing skill is number one key ingredient. I do see lots of interest in breweries here sourcing as much local raw material that they can find. Hop growers, barley growers, and maltsters appear to be increasing.
     
  16. hopfenunmaltz

    hopfenunmaltz Pooh-Bah (2,611) Jun 8, 2005 Michigan
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    If you tour enough breweries you will see malt from the UK and Germany, hops from around the world, and maybe containers of different yeast strains.

    European hop strains grown in the US are different due to the PNW climate and soil.

    Water, it can be adjusted by a brewer that knows what they are doing. In fact there is a book on just that. Water

    Local yeast is the place that may have the most terroir. A brewers yeast used in a brewery will take on a house character after time.
     
  17. Ranbot

    Ranbot Pooh-Bah (2,389) Nov 27, 2006 Pennsylvania
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    In theory, yes, terroir could be important to beer, but in actual practice it is not. It's near impossible to make commercially viable beer with all ingredients coming from a single location. Heck, these days it would be difficult for someone to even make a single homebrew batch within those requirements.
     
  18. marquis

    marquis Pooh-Bah (2,301) Nov 20, 2005 England
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    If this is the case then all wine could be made excellent by skilfull winemaking.Even my own humble grape harvest , I must be doing something wrong. But it's common in Bordeaux for a winemaker to own several parcels of land and although using the same skills and methods manages to produce wines of quite different characteristics, quality and price obtainable.
    Champagne growers are investing in Kent as the chalk slopes are considered ideal for growing grape varieties for producing sparkling wine.These guys are professionals and are prepared to put their money on the line regarding terroir.
    Same with hopgrowing, in Kent hop gardens only miles apart would specialise in different varieties because they grew better there.Move a little further west and Sussex hops fetched a markedly lower price.
    My cousin farms about 60 miles north of the superb East Anglian barley fields.Similar climate of course but his barley doesn't match the exacting standards set by the maltsters.
    To say that terroir is simple the result of techniques doesn't make sense IMO.
     
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  19. rgordon

    rgordon Pooh-Bah (2,677) Apr 26, 2012 North Carolina
    Pooh-Bah Society

    Then there is Professor Ducio Cavalieri, a microbiologist and from a family of wine-makers in Chianti. His 15 year DNA research on the relationship between the European hornet and its contribution to local wine is intriguiging. It seems that the hornet can pierce the grape skin- unlike other "vermin"- and actually inject local yeast (and flora) into the grape, thus beginning some sort of fermentation. Perhaps this symbiosis contributes to what might be considered "terroir"?
     
  20. Kurmaraja

    Kurmaraja Initiate (0) May 21, 2013 California
    Trader

    Maybe we simplify and discuss "sense of place" since that's something more and more brewers are trying to take into consideration? Sierra Nevada and Rogue are both attempting to grow a lot of their own ingredients. Almanac, Jester King, Freetail, Ale Apothecary, De Garde and others are seeking out local ingredients and "flora." The story of De Garde's brewer driving around Oregon seeking the right place to brew before settling on Tillamook is an interesting one. Regardless of where he's getting many ingredients, such as grains, he obviously felt that place would be the definitive factor.
     
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