So, how's beer trading going?

I think trade #33 is acceptable ISO: younger protocol. If you're looking to go big or go home, trade #41 is acceptable ISO: Ephraim protocol.

Edit: I didn't know growlers of Ephraim are still getting around. Hmmmmm... My entire world is flipped upside down now.

Btw, thanks so much for running the site in the first place guys. I think we all just want it to be as good as it can based on our own opinions. Having an open discussion like this is by far the best way to achieve just that, a consensus of what works best. An open community, especially including moderater interaction, self regulates and ultimately benefits. Same as open source code ( im an artist and web designer ). Anyways thanks again for putting in the time and effort to run an epic online beer community. There are soooo many standup BA's on this site.

Cheers to you guys!

Okay, my turn.

Yes on 101 sticky.

Yes on bad trader list sticky.

Love the idea of a Beer Price Check thread, to clean up Beer Trading Help thread.

Love only 3 trade posts a week.

Instead of bringing back comments in ISO, how about a Like/Dislike option (instead of just Likes)?

The last two above promote community. People who spend time on BA get to know each other/build relationships. If a person (noob or otherwise) is looking at an ISO, and it has a ton of dislikes, or most of the dislikes are from veterans (or both) they would think twice. They might even reach out to the folks disliking it for an opinion why. (Whoah, say what? That sounds like building relationships!!!) like I did back when I was a noob, if they ACTUALLY care about the community, they will start researching and learning who others are.

If the # of ISOs is limited again, well, I get most of my trades done directly w/o an ISO. This obviously happens more often with relationships. But you have to build up to that. When I first came in, there were ISO limits. This forced me to pick and choose my ISOs more carefully, and do more research to make that happen. In addition, with all the garbage offers now, if you combine limits and dislikes, this will counteract said garbage.

Hope that is helpful.

Of course #1,2 are a great addition.

My thoughts on "Replies at ISO:FT" :

Replies can usually be very helpful, as long as there is some self control, which unfortunately as we have seen in the past is not always the case. Moderating such a busy forum is obviously a pain the a**, constant bumping is also an unwanted effect which also requires moderation. Sometime a bump could be in order, if for example there is an ISO:FT for B.A Moby Dick Ale aged with unicorn tear drops and fresh Edelweiss stems in Crystal Magnum Bottle #1 of 11, during rush hour 10-15 topics per hour are being posted in the ISO:FT forum, many are local 6pack for local 6pack, or something that can be completed within the hour, then the Moby Dick is lost in page 3-4, etc without being resolved, and the OP wants to make a revised offer.

Not allowing replies solves the moderation , the unwanted bumping, the smartassing/threadshitting problems but other problems occur. No additional helpful info can be added, no revised offer,no indication if the trade is completed, the BM increase a lot on some occasions (f.ex instead of writing on a post thanks for all the offers, this one is closed, you have to send a BM to anybody who sent one if you don't want to appear a total as***, or you keep getting BMd even after it is closed).

So far it is a 50-50 situation both in pros/cons and member opinions. A good solution could be to keep it a "no reply" forum BUT allow the OP to change the title and add: [Completed] (and the Completed threads are removed 1-2 times per day) or allow the OP to delete the thread himself once it is completed. That way only open ISO:FT will remain and no bumping will be needed. An extra plus would be to allow the OP one post or edit after 1 day for example for a revised offer. All of the above of course if the solution can be done using existing forum settings and no extra heavy core programming is required.

Just my 2cts.

Cheers,

Alex

Todd,

Agreed on #1 and #2

Suggestion for #3 - A
The following is how a forum I used to frequent was run. (though I suspect it will be a lot of programing)

They had comments on ISO/FT forum, but this was sorted by original post date, instead of most recent comment.

Posters could only start a thread in that forum 2 or 3 times a week.

There was also a "bump button". This would be a button available to the original poster on their original post. Every 24 hrs the OP could click this button and it would move their post back to the top of the forum.

Lastly, they also had a system where you could pay a little money for their post to be "stuck" at the top of the forum for X number of days.

Suggestion for #3 - B
A more simple solution to the commenting vs not commenting is to allow it up to the OP. Have a box that he could check when making his original post. If he doesn't want commenting then the site will automatically not allow comments on his thread. Though using this I would also be in favor of the sorting by original post date instead of most recent comment date.

Again, I think these may be a little more in depth compared to what you are looking for.

Crazy idea that I understand may be difficult to implement, but seems more or less perfect for everybody:

The owner of each ISO/FT post gets to moderate their own post and also decide whether or not to allow replies. (Default is to allow) If threadshitting arises, they have the ability to delete comments, and even block the poster from that thread. Or just lock it up for everyone if they don't want to deal with it.

Your sarcasm is only funny since you fail to get my point.

Asking for Younger is obviously a newbie mistake. It's never correct to ask for it but just as the new guy shoots for the moon by asking for Blabaer, he does so out of ignorance. Asking for a rare DONG release is also due to ignorance. In this case there's no difference.

If you think belittling a new member is appropriate here just say so, you don't have to try to belittle an existing one to make your case...

I've been registered for a little while, been lurking even longer than that, and I still haven't started trading through the mail, although I've done some in-person trades. Part of that is not yet being willing to commit to the expense/process of shipping, part of that is building up a cellar with some trading ammo, but a big part is that I still feel like I'm getting a suitable base of information and knowledge before I jump in. Reading old comments, both in the ISO/FT forum and in the General/Help forum, has been a big part of that. I'm sure that most of the threadshitting comments have been deleted which is why I don't see them, but a lot of the comments I've read on old ISO/FT posts have been helpful to me in the learning process. They help create a "marketplace of ideas" that allows for the free flow of information.

No, no, no.

Completed trades are exactly what we do need a permanent record of, not hundreds of lopsided, never-gonna-happen offers that give people skewed ideas of what is reasonable. A filtering mechanism makes sense for browsing and searching, but we absolutely shouldn't delete completed trades.

How about making it so that the op can check off a box marking the trade "completed". On the ISO main page, these threads would be marked with a green checkmark, so that you don't need to go into each thread to see if it got done or not. You could just scroll down, and get a relatively good idea on trade values.

Sorry, I guess that post should have warranted some explanation.

One minor problem...what if the trade was modified. How is that to be reflected??

And I would say 9 times out of 10 the trade is modified from the original in some way.

Some good ideas ( I am commenting directly on your point in part B. and another person in part A)
but in reality...

If I am one of the problem BAs ( new and old ) which is making this discussion necessary, I am going to:

A. not allow any comments in my ISO:FT threads if that is an option.
Why?
I do not want to hear that my trade may be way off because even though I know it, there is a CHANCE.
I do not want uneducated people seeing others comment that the trade may be way off ( same reasoning ).
I have been a bad trader and someone might warn others about me in my thread.
I am new, do not know better but am thin skinned and cannot filter out BS for the nugget of knowledge.
there are many other reasons...

B. mark the trade as complete even if it does not get completed if that is an option.
Why?
So the next day when I post my 2nd bottle of Dark Lord ( I have 16 more bottles because I paid people to come with me ) those who do not know any better will only have a frame of reference that similar trades happened and may make a deal they should not be making.

BA looking to get their feet wet in the trading forum:
Gee... Dark Lord ( for example ) must be really limited if it has traded 5 times for wale X...
I guess lll trade my wale X for it.

When in reality dark lord is ransomed for gold when in reality they make so much of it is might as well be a limited shelf beer and the trades never happened.

I hate that there are people out there like that, but I bet most BAs that frequent the ISO:FT forums can name at least 5 off the top of their heads. ( not just new BAs either )

AND YES, I WANT COMMENTS BACK FOR ENTERTAINMENT VALUE AS WELL AS EDUCATIONAL VALUE.

Whoa there, I wasn't belittling anyone...the joke was simply that what Dom said ("Probably shouldn't be asking for Younger or Blabaer in your first (30+) trade posts.") could imply to a noob reading it that you can get Younger (eventually), even though he was simply saying that you need experience to know what you can and can't get. Just a joke about the syntax, not about the argument or you or anything else.

Leave No. 3 as is. The last thing I want is someone threadshitting and jacking for my personal ISO. If I wanted a BA's opinion or reply to my thread it would read "ISO: Need your opinion for a trade". Too many people put in their two cents worth when it's not wanted, warranted or simply unbased/incorrect. If you don't agree, shut your hole, move on and let the ISO be.

Said douchebag public posts can be undermining your public ISO, perhaps because he is ignorant, a douche, or whatever. At least when I get a ridiculous beermail I can delete it and not have someones blabbering attached to my post.

So I say person x is a bad trader or y beer is a shelf beer or z beer is infected and the OP deletes my comment? Simple is best. Allow comments. Add a community mod. Done.

Those examples are treading the line of threadshitting anyway, so you would get deleted by the mod regardless. (Especially calling something a "shelf beer")

Seriously? None of those comments are threadshitting. If im trading away an 09 abyss what is wrong with warning people about an infection. What if jojo posts an ISO? What if I heard of Pliny and didn't know anything about trading and was offering limited stuff for it? Wouldn't it be nice if some kind BA could come in and give me and the rest of the community info. Or if I was offering a local obscure but on the shelf impy stout and looking for "similar limited stouts" wouldn't it be nice if someone would chime in and let everyone know it's a shelf beer. And what's the harm to anyone? If your ISO is solid you get it done anyway.

The entire concept of "shelf beer" serves no beneficial purpose, and it's not a term that should even exist, for numerous reasons. But dropping it on somebody else's ISO/FT? That is the textbook definition of threadshitting. I've traded brewery releases for shelf beers and shelf beers for brewery releases - both more times than I can count. It's nobody's place to chime in and say "that's a shelf beer", as if that term holds any weight towards anything relevant...

The infected thing is more of a gray area. When accurate it is fine. But I've seen it inaccurately used more often than not. People love to say things like "I had a bottle of this recently and it is over the hill". Or, "That thing is infected - be careful" when in reality it has 2 known bad bottles out of 20,000.

A known bad trader posting in the ISO/FT is extremely rare, and if it happens, it should be brought to the Bros attention pronto.

Who cares if they're offering limited stuff for some (relatively) easy-to-get Pliny? If I offered a Rare for a sixer of Modus, how am I wrong? There is no objective trade value to these beers, simply the desire of both parties involved.

If I had my druthers, ISO/FT would remain reply-less, and any tade value threads would be relegated to their own sub-forum so only those beer-brokers (as opposed to beer-traders) can have their fun arbitrarily citing this stat or that spec to determine "values" apparently inherent in the bottles.

And I don't tend to BM anybody regarding "mis-balanced" trades, but if I did, I wouldn't tell them it's not gonna happen because their beer isn't rare/special enough to garner what they're asking for, but rather tell them that apparently beer trading is all about returns on investments and landing the most limited, most special beers possible and that their beers just aren't up to snuff in the eyes of these brokers. Dammit, people, let's bring trading back to traders and away from brokers!

You can do whatever the hell you want but if I thought the only way for me to get it was to offer something limited I would be happy if someone posted in my thread and let me know I didn't have to. If I still wanted to hooray for me. But either way. Who cares. I, like most of you have traded limited stuff for easy to get stuff and vice versa. However, I went into it with my eyes open. All someone's response does is give more people more info. The benefits definitely outweigh someone being mildly irritated by a few responses. The vast majority of responses are on topic and therefore not threadshitting. And if someone gets more than mildly irritated by a response to a thread I don't think we are having the same conversation.

Generally speaking, I agree that more information tends to be better than less. However, my point above was that allowing replies in the ISO/FT forum isn't going to make trading any better (I think I'm using a "spiritual"/holistic definition for that), but rather it's going to keep taking things down the wrong road by reinforcing the idea that some beers are intrinsically worth more than others and that a kind of beer value caste system truly exists.

Maybe I'm too much of an idealist, but not only allowing that to happen but also helping it along just seems downright wrong in my eyes.

I will concede, though, that anyone ought to be allowed to trade for whatever with whatever and with whomever, regardless of the opinions of others, so my opinion on this is technically just as meaningless as those that sit on the opposite end of the philosophical spectrum. Still...

the number of troll/parody/insane offers is through the roof. If I was a new trader, I'd be so bewildered I don't know what I'd do.

I know you've been back and forth on this one, but if you're leery of moderation, let some users who have been around the block a bit moderate.

I'd prefer if it was an active user, but not an active trader, so there's no conflict of interest. Someone who's posting huge trade offers all the time prob. shouldn't be moderating the trading forums.

PS I think there needs to be some serious overhaul for the format- I've seen a HUGE uptick of beer trading on facebook as people leave BA as there's no good way to discuss trades.

And I know the reasons why replies were nixed... just sayin'.

I know a lot of people stopped using BA and started using Rate Beer because of the change to how the trade forums are currently with no replies and asinine offers here. I just went to Facebook.

Hey my bad man. I was the one who originally used those two beers as examples and in my quick skimming of the thread I must have thought you were saying that in response to my comment.

No problem, I can see how it could have been confusing.

all right, all right, i'll do it. jesus. stop begging.

Honestly, there was more entertainment value with the replies being allowed in the ISO:FT forum. I visited the forum more frequently. Now I don't really log in much unless I am working on a trade myself.

I don't mind comments in the ISO:FT forum.

People new to trading getting "schooled" in public on some common etiquette and beer valuations is an efficient way for them to learn the ins-and-outs of beer trading.

When I first started thats how I learned a lot. Also saves time me time from BMing someone who has no idea what they are doing.

My personal experience is that beer trading is no longer a BA activity. I simply have less interest in going to the ISO/FT forum without replies being allowed. There are too many outrageous requests without the unmoderated commentary that would make the site fun.

I've used BA less than ever before, it's just lost its mojo for me.

Yes to both a Bad Trader sticky and a Trading 101 thread.

For the most part I'm staying out of the conversation debate, but offering a simple "bumping" solution. It's similar to what someone else said above but with less coding, and it would inherently need to be used with a rule about the max number of ISO:FT threads a week. Another forum I'm on handles it this way and it works well. Any post you make in your own thread is a bump. You can bump your thread once every 72 hours. If you bump early you get reported and a one month ban. I'm not saying on THIS forum you should be automatically banned, but warned for sure and temp banned for repeat offenders. That forum is a marketplace, where money is exchanged, so that's why they dish out immediate bans for it.

Not an easy/quick solution but here's another offering anyways:

Implement a visual indication of forum misconduct (whether publicly or on the user's profile as a private thing, I prefer public). I think this solves a couple problems. Currently many users feel that user banning/silencing happens randomly and inconsistently. Instead of up and banning someone tick off one of (3?) "strikes" against their account. Make it visual and public so that they know when they did something wrong and how close they are to being banned.

Now, allow replies in the trade forums. Allow the fun banter and playful friendly ribbing that used to go on that so many apparently enjoyed. But when someone gets out of control they get dinged. They'll see that and know they are about to get banned for that behavior. It's pretty common on other forums/online communities to see people who have been silenced with a special icon by their name or something. Like I said I like it public because when I see that I often up and block that person on the spot because I don't want to potentially deal with their BS in the future. The publicity aspect also serves to warn the greater community as well.

I dunno, maybe this is too complicated or simply unnecessary, but I think it would eventually lead to a more grounded community that policed itself in some respects due to the public nature of it all. I also *believe* that I saw once that you guys already keep tabs so to speak on user "bad karma" anyways.

To bring this full circle - tie it directly into beer karma, which is still on the list for the final site rework, yes? Over time/with exceptional good karma users can potentially lift one of the strikes against their account.Perhaps the visual indication of the bad karma is just the opposite of whatever you use for good karma. It can go positive or negative, or move from cool icons to ugly/embarrassing ones.

And of course you still reserve the right to immediately ban someone for any reason you deem appropriate.

Given the other thread how about leave ISO:FT as is, leave help as is and create a subforum for something like "current trade trends" where people can post "value/what does it take" threads which yes are a form of ISOs with commentary, etc? People posting in there will be fully aware comments are allowed and people who just want no comments can post in ISOFT.

Maybe I am missing something but it seems like a decent compromise and serves to keep ISOFT clean, will declutter help a bit and allow people to get feedback in another area.

Yes
Yes

Replies without bumping seems to make the most sense. Trades will still get done with negative feedback, but the trading community as a whole will benefit from the feedback.

Being a newer user (1year old), learning what is a fair trade through feedback and posts is what taught me how to be fair. If I read a bunch of crazy ISO/FT (like we see currently) it would distort my view on trading and only continue to create this view with new traders.

Craft beer is a growing industry which means beer trading and this site will continue to grow. I think it's a good idea to be proactive in the growth and fairness and teach new craft beer lovers that trading isn't about winning but about sharing.