Discussion in 'Beer Trading General / Help' started by Todd, Oct 29, 2012.
How about a permanent price check thread?
I've got about 15 trades under my belt, all done while comments were allowed. Guess how many of my trades got threadshit...none. If you had a trade get threadshit, it's because it deserved to be threadshit.
Comments are a necessary evil, just prevent them from bumping if possible.
Do you mean a single thread for all beers? Or a sub-forum?
How about as a sub-forum, within each region. I care a lot more about what something is going for locally than what someone across the country is paying for it.
I like the price idea. Perhaps a "price range" could be added to the page for each beer.
That might be overkill, but we're taking all suggestions under consideration right now. Thanks.
How about allow 3 posts total per week to the trade forums (ISO:FT that is)? That is, including replies and new thread postings. That way there would be some thought maybe given to the replies, instead of a constant banter back and forth...
My friend, I am glad you were not being serious.
I am glad that some folks were helped in the replies. That's cool, and a great part of BA is the community that can be built. However, it appeared to me, and granted I may be wrong, that for any one trader that was ever helped, three people were just threadshit upon. Random jack-ass comments (the most), BA's starting mini-conversations with in the thread with other BA's that had posted comments (sometimes), and getting trades pulled (least) because of all these shenanigans. All the while, the OP is just trying to trade some beer. If somebody wants it, it happens. If nobody is interested, it does not happen. Let freedom ring. I'm afraid this will have to be the end, as I've wasted my allotted time for the day. Agree to disagree, I guess.
Grammar Nazi P.S. - *rustled jimmies
Most responses start off helpful, even if the response is flippant. The real problems happen because the threads are bumped. Activity begets activity. An active thread at the top of the forum with a lot of responses is increasingly likely to get more and more responses, discussions, side conversations, jackass comments, etc. But who actually looks at a trade thread on page 2? If threads aren't bumped, responses will happen, and most of them will be useful. Trades will happen if they were going to happen, and then fall off the page. Off topic thread takeovers won't dominate page 1.
As for the moderation nightmare, don't moderate it or very lightly moderate it.
It is trade AT YOUR OWN RISK where people can actually get ripped off, why not post AT YOUR OWN RISK where only feelings may get hurt?
I understand not including names etc. on the forum that would need to be removed ( however I really think if you screw someone over, you are fair game ) but I can see the ramifications.
I got my balls busted a few times when I started to trade. I learned the internet is a wild place and got over it.
( at the time Dreadnaught did not trade for KBS )
We are all at least 21 here aren't we?
Rabble rabble rabble.
Now that I have got that out my system- good job on the site. Threads shitting in the trade forums had begun to bleed over into other forums and made the site overall a negative place. As far as the complaint of trade value- there is no trade value aside from what is paid for the beer. Went out of your way for it and drove two days and lost a friend in the process? Good for you champ, if what is offered doesn't measure up then don't trade it. Worse comes to worst you will have to -gasp- drink that beer you worked on so hard for.
In short, this site works just as it needs to.
Allow replies / list posts by date.
I think that a beer trading 101 sticky would be awesome. I remember not too long ago taking time to search on BA and google to get some info on trading and the associated dos, don'ts, and other associated things to know before you jump in. However there are plenty of people who don't take time to figure things out before they jump in. I'm sure a sticky would help with that. And it goes without saying that a bad traders list sticky would surely help things out.
yes. i know both the people involved. but i snickered about it due to the person on the other end getting taken advantage of was a mildly entertaining thing. not going to post the details here.
I like the first 2 options, and I'm mixed on the 3rd. I personally like being able to Reply in the Trade fForum. It gives a chance for a positive reference to be made about the OP. I know this may seem small, but I like being able to randomly toss my 2 positive cents in on behalf of a solid BA. But sadly, as mordormongo said, it can get ugly quick.
Not to distract from the otherwise pristine and infallible logical structure of your brilliant argument (cough cough), but...grammar isn't spelling?
And to give a substantive reply: so you'd rather get rid of helpful posts than "suffer" through threadshits (which you've already admitted don't bother you)?
I think you're right. Seems like my typo...
RUSSLED some jimmies.
I really like the idea of a sub-forum within Beer Trading for price checks. Then the BCBS or whatever price-check thread could be full of everybody's different costs (they could mention where they made the purchase), and people researching trades could search that much easier. Seems like it would cut down on comments in ISOs if said comments were to be reinstated.
Trading is going ok. Not much has changed since any of the new site implementations. But here's my two cents anyways:
1) Yes, please sticky the bad trader list.
2) Yes, Beer Trading 101 would be awesome too.
3) Yes to replies as long as they don't bump. If your ISO/FT really was fair then there should be no worry about threadshitting. Out of the 100s of ISO/FTs I've put up I have never had any threadshitting, nor have I ever had someone BM me their thoughts.
4*) (I know it wasn't initially addressed, but...) Yes to minimum site reaquirements before someone can post in any trading forum (maybe with the exception of the IT forward forum, only because I don't know how much of an issue these things are over there). Minimum time as a BA and minimum number of posts would help weed out the one-day-old new accounts started up and diving right into trading.
My real issue with trading lately (albeit a very minor issue in the grand scheme of things) is the Beer Trading/General Help forum. It is just a new ISO/FT forum where replies help your post stay at the top for days on end until it finally gets done. If you want to know the value of your beer, post an ISO/FT looking for specific beers (or styles) in return. You'll probably find out pretty quickly what it's worth. If you really aren't certain what you want to trade it for then spend some time researching rather than posting your "Trade Value" question (which we all know is just the new auction format).
I agree with photekut in the sense that if Beer Trading is done "at your own risk," then posting in that forum should also be done that way. Leave the moderation for real issues, such as posting personal information, names, etc., or if someone is truly out of control and resorting to personal attacks, etc.
Thanks guys, you're doing a great job as it stands now and thanks for listening to our feedback!
My opinion is that the majority of those that want replies want them for the entertainment value alone. I don't trade often and don't care either way.
Touché, good sir. You out grammar-nazied me.
Allow replies in the ISO/FT forum again. The useful information offered far outweighs the crapping (for those with tougher skin at least).
Have default sort by date. This eliminates the bumping problem.
Otherwise, this place is solid.
A sub-forum under Beer Trading. Similar to the Beer Trading/General Help.
I'm unclear. Where exactly are people supposed to do this "research", if not via the Trading/General Help forum (or replies in ISO:FT)? We lost tons of historical information in the Great Crash, and most people never go back to edit a post to say if it got done (or if it did exactly what the trade was in the end). Lots of breweries don't post bottle counts, prices, or bottle limits on their websites.
Maybe you can FT a beer and get a sense of value from the responses you get (but be careful you don't get dinged for auctioning), but I really question that ISOing blindly gets you much information.
I say yes for all three. 1 & 2 would be amazing. Since replies were disabled, all that the General forum gets now is "what can i get for xxx" and "how do i get xxx", etc. That forum has pretty much become the old ISO forum.
Just browsing through some of the comments regarding allowing users to comment on trade posts again I have the following two thoughts which require no added work for the Bros:
1) If a user is posting junk to the forum just ignore them (I mean, select the "ignore" feature here) and you won't see their posts anymore. It no longer clogs up your screen and you won't feel offended anymore or compelled to shit on them.
-Keep in mind that its everyone's right to ask for whatever they deem fair. Whether it's a realistic deal is a whole other question, but that's not the point.2) If you think someone isn't asking enough for their rare bottle you can always private message them about it. Hell, you can do this for the obscenely outlandish offers too if you really want.
-Sorry that this solution doesn't allow for you to be seen publicly defending the honor or your whales though...I do think there is some value to be had in allowing comments on trade threads, but frankly the cons far outweigh the pros. Leave 'er as is imo.
Disabling replies in ISO:FT has done two things: made it harder to get trades done if you don't already know the relative value of what you want, and turned General/Help into an auction block, precisely because people don't know what their (or others') beer is worth. See this thread:
If noobs spent some time reading and learning they'd figure out pretty quickly what their beers are "worth" (whatever that means). Research along those lines is done by learning the ropes, watching the forum, and learning through hard knocks (in other words, posting FT threads and getting nothing but crickets). Hence my response:
I certainly see your point here though:
Those are legitimate questions for the General/Help forum. I didn't bash those types of threads. I find them helpful myself. My problem is "What can I get for a 4-pack of FBS," and "What is King Henry trading for these days." 99% of such posts are thinly veiled attempts at circumventing the ISO/FT forum, read: "If I post FT: KBS, ISO: 2012 Blabaer 750ml $4$ will it get done?"
A lot can be learned by spending just a few days reading and researching the trade threads.
How about an advanced search for gots and wants
If I have beers a b and c for trade and want to get beer y. If I could put a b and c Into a
Got field then y into a want field and have the members show up that want a b and or c and have y that Would be cool
I vote for allow replies without bumping the thread.
Unfortunately we're falling into the pitfall of web-based apathy. What are normally serviceable human beings in real life (meaning possessing of a minimum of intelligence, common-courtesy, and common-sense) suddenly become incredibly rude, clueless, and helpless online.
You could apply your comment to the regional forums - for beer releases, breweries off common highways, bars to visit in large cities, etc or frankly virtually any aspect of any public forum website.
My only point being that resources available are not necessarily used. I support you on a minimum time requirement for using the trading forums. Frankly, I was a huge supporter of the minimum user contribution requirement the Bros instated last year. I know many went ballistic over it, but I felt it was a good way of weeding out some of the riff raff.
Yah I get what you're saying. Beleive me, I've been around long enough to see the ebb and flow of trading mannerisms. And I can also say that I've seen a lot of noobs taking advantage of the trading forum lately. I don't chalk it up to noobism, I chalk it up to the "winning a trade" mentality that is all too rampant lately. It's getting quite out-of-hand.
I like to help. I like to talk about bottle counts, availability, so on and so forth. It's fun and entertaining. However, I get tired of people not using the available resources and jumping into something they don't quite understand fully. It isn't rocket science, it isn't futures or trend following, or trailing stop-losses. It's simple. I have beer you want and you have beer I want. Sit back, relax, watch how it gets done, and get your feet wet before hunting walez bro.
I don't subscribe to the trading forums for entertainment value like I know a lot of BAs do. But I do think that allowing comments in the ISO/FT forum certainly intimidates a lot of people from posting ridiculous trade offers and is definitely a valuable tool for keeping our community in check.
The idea that noobs can be taken advantage of is silly. I don't believe in the thought that a vast majority of noobs are getting taken advantage of, trading their bottles of Don Q for 4-packs of KBS. People at that level of beer collecting know what they're dealing in. On the other hand, noobs that unknowingly trade their bottles of Chocolate Rain b1 for a couple bottles of Positive Contact (which also never happens) probably should do a bit of research before jumping in. Not research exclusively in the trading forums, but research in the beer community in general. That being said, those that know the caliber of beers like Fou' Foune and Armand & Tommy Blend that trade them for other hard to find limited brewery-only releases without holding them hostage are the ones that are truly doing it right.
Self-moderation works wonders. If it's too hard to deal with than I recommend using Craigs List and eBay for your beer-related transactions. However, if you're willing to play by the rules and do it just like everybody else then welcome! Let's work out some trades
I agree with everything you're saying, but unfortunately that doesn't seem possible on BA for 2 reasons:
1) For it to work fully, and to keep the Bros sane, the trading forum comments would have to be virtually un-moderated. Do you see that ever happening? Doubtful seems too weak a word.
2) Related to #1, the community here can't seem to abide by the same values I mentioned that many "n00bs" or others lack online: common courtesy being the main one here. I'm all for a quick shaming of the guy who is unabashedly trying to auction off a fake bottle to the highest bidder. But it doesn't stop there, the community will turn that thread into a 90 reply epic of argument and insult.
The spinoff effect is that the new guy who keeps hearing about Younger and Blabaer suddenly asks for them (innocently) in his first trade thread. Again the whole community descends on the guy insulting and assuming he's a cheater because his account is new. Yeah, he should have done his research a bit more, but we lose a community member for life because of the shitshow that ensued. Chasing away users (despite what some around here may think) is not going to help this site, the trading community, and the beer community survive and thrive.
If we are going to revert to replies, I'd suggest the following:
-poster can allow or disallow replies at any time (so if too many chime in with unwelcome comments the thread can have replies turn off post-creation)
-poster can delete the thread at any time
-stricter protocols for posting and time-lapse
-Go back to 2 (or 3, 4, whatever) maximum threads open at a given time-auto-delete/close all trade threads with zero activity after a week (or some other timeline)And of course this is all made much easier and more useful when inter-worked with a permanent site-hosted stickied Bad Trader List and the eventual trader feedback system.
I like your line of reasoning.
Couldn't have said it better myself.
Hence, "No bumping with replies to threads in the ISO/FT forum." You don't like it? Move along.
Probably shouldn't be asking for Younger or Blabaer in your first (30+) trade posts.
This is not something I want to see. I absolutely do value new members and their contributions to this site. We need to keep fresh blood in here and it does nothing but expand the diversity of our community. I agree that chasing away new people from the beer scene is the last thing we need for our interests to fluorish.
looks like we agree on more than one thing. This is exactly what I'd like to see happen.
Time to crack open one last beer before bed. Cheers!
Edit: Yah, it's gonna be another Kona Longboard Lager... :/
Drinking a Frangelic Mountain Brown. Wishing it was the '07 BCBS some guy just found in his parents' basement.
Admittedly all of this exposition is likely wasted until after we see the feedback system. Once in place I feel like most/all of these problems would go away on their own.
I like this guy.
So it's ok to ask for Younger after trade #40?
I think if #3 is reinstated we should add in the sticky what classifies as threadshitting. Someone saying FBS is a shelf beer located all through out IL and can be found with little effort while Citra is a 6 bottle brewery only release in the middle of nowhere is not threadshitting. Someone saying you can order the ISO beer online is also not threadshitting, it is being helpful and promoting advocacy. I can not imagine any real beer advocate being against that.
How about a stochastic difference model that takes into account beer rarity, value, and other factors to assign units to a beer from 1-1000. These can then be used to sum over trades and allow for a fair and balanced metric for comparison across proposed deals.
A little linear regression explaining the idea of trade value would be great and free up some frozen markets. Because right now we are experiencing assymetric information bias.
I think keeping the replies out is a good move ultimately. I think linking to a bad traders list is an absolute must.
Great job guys keep it up
Separate names with a comma.