Should we rank breweries?

Talk Discussion in 'BeerAdvocate Talk' started by SaverioD, Dec 29, 2013.

?

Do you want BeerAdvocate to re-establish an annual ranking of breweries?

  1. Yes, numerical rankings like top 100 advance the goals of craft brewing

    37.7%
  2. No, numerical rankings like top 100 do not advance the goals of caft brewing

    30.4%
  3. Who cares whether they advance craft brewing or not ... Polls are fun

    31.9%
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  1. SaverioD

    SaverioD Initiate (0) Jun 1, 2013 Georgia

    I recently posted a request for the latest Beer Advocate's brewery ranking. The interest was born of a fun debate I was having with a family member. We learned from BA that they have not done a ranking in a while but they wondered whether they should relaunch the annual effort. Personally, I would refrain from going down that road, but I thought I would put the idea to the community in the form of a survey. I also list a few of the pros and cons to seed your considerations:

    Cons
    1. Ranking brewers runs counter to the culture of Craft Brewing which emphasizes skill and creativity over popularity. Budweiser is popular but is neither creative nor the result of brewing skill.
    2. Rankings tend to skew craft beer consumer interests and this skewing results in a self-fulfilling cycle that undermines the opportunities for upstarts or local/regional brewers
    3. Biases are too numerous and too compelling to really be able to make a reasonable and compelling list. For example, there are:
      • Survey demographics biases - the breweries that are in areas/states where there are more survey participants (because of the population centers of BA readers) will have an advantage
      • Distribution biases - almost by definition, craft brewers have distribution limitations and that limits their potential audience. Moreover, even if a craft brewer reaches a certain audience, the selection from that brewer may be limited to a certain style
      • Experiential bias - People tend to support positive experiences so if I liked my visit to a brewery or with the one style I tried, I am likely to rank the brewer highly as confirmation of my experience
      • Reversion to the Known bias - people are influenced by advertisements, PR events and other associations which have little to do with craft beer quality. The most popular craft brewery in my area is the preferred choice among young, urban, price conscious, high volume consumption partiers. I consider the brewer's output to be pedestrian at best.
      • Engagement bias - let's face it. there are many craft brew participants who are mildly attached to the movement. They usually choose a brewery and style and never venture beyond that point while others are active/educated in their search for great experiences
      • Price bias - for volume drinkers, paying $15-30 for a pint is a budget buster. A good portion of craft beer drinkers do not venture beyond grocery store brands and that limits experience - high price does not always equate to quality but voting based on price accessibility will likely skew us towards higher volume/efficiency minded craft brewers
      • Home team bias - everyone has a tendency for local pride. While I tend to seek out new-to-me brewers globally, my relatives fly the flag of their home town brewers
      • Expectation bias - some craft brew consumers just want something not too challenging but weightier than global brands; others like great efforts in classic styles; while others seek out brewers who live on the knife's edge of creativity and extremism.
      • Inflexibility bias - true students of craft beer expect the occasional drain pour even with preferred brewers b/c they respect the craft. They can rationalize that some efforts are outside their palate but still have a high regard for the brewer. Further, they understand that certain styles are best during certain seasons or are better for pairings than stand-alone or should be respected for their complexity etc. I imagine that many/most craft drinkers have already locked into their style and brewer and want to confirm the intelligence of their choice by voting accordingly.
      • and so on
    4. Craft Brewers cater to certain palates. We all know that it is usually inappropriate to say a style or effort is "bad" or "good" because the brewer was not targeting our specific palate
    5. Rankings may influence brewers to focus on economic matters over their craft. At what point does the marketing "genius" direct the brewer's choices in order to move up the rankings?
    Pros
    1. Rankings usually spur debate and debate can be a form of education and confidence building
    2. Rankings may help guide new participants to venture into safe experiences and limit drain pours early on the development of their interests
    3. Other positives?
    So, in sum, I am not convinced a numerical ranking would serve us well. Personally, I think a tiered allocation would be more useful and more consistent with craft beer principles. For example, tiers that reflect excellence at style breadth and durability over time; excellence for core styles; excellence for a specific style; excellence for product development/experimentation and so on. I think that acknowledgements should advance the principles of CRAFT and not the tendency to promote popularity.

    What are your thoughts?
    Saverio

    PS, yes, I do recognize my pro v con list above reflects my bias but feel free to add to the pro or con list
     
    ClemsonMike likes this.
  2. rundownhouse

    rundownhouse Initiate (0) Sep 15, 2005 Tennessee

    You could have just gone and created such a list and sold it to buzzfeed or something and have like, a million click-throughs and at least four threads on BA about what's wrong with your list.
     
    therica, waston, emerge077 and 9 others like this.
  3. SaverioD

    SaverioD Initiate (0) Jun 1, 2013 Georgia

    Wonderfully snarky. Unfortunately, not very helpful or informative. Let's keep it friendly.
    Saverio
     
    SpAiReArGsEonNE likes this.
  4. mikeburd1128

    mikeburd1128 Maven (1,409) Oct 28, 2011 New Jersey

    That's a lot of words you wrote there. And I didn't read too many of them. It seems like you might just be taking this just a BIT too seriously.

    It seems to me that a yearly ranking of "best" breweries would, for the most part, consist of names we all know of already and would not be all that exciting. I wouldn't mind seeing a "Best New Breweries" list or "Best New Beers." And yes, I know the top new beers list exists, but I believe it only does from the past 6 months and is not a yearly list.

    I dk. Ultimately I don't really care all that much, but I definitely wouldn't mind hearing about the top new breweries around the country/world that I probably haven't heard of due to what is likely very small distro.
     
  5. SaverioD

    SaverioD Initiate (0) Jun 1, 2013 Georgia

    Actually, I consider this kind extended thought process fun and I enjoy getting a look at how other people think. So, this is me being "light". :slight_smile: As you would guess, I prefer the heavier ales which include oak-casked, bourbon aged, high viscosity, ink black etc

    Much appreciation for your post and insight!
    Saverio
     
    azorie and Tidesox28 like this.
  6. Orca

    Orca Grand Pooh-Bah (4,441) Sep 18, 2010 Washington
    Pooh-Bah Society

    OP lists more cons than pros, plus con #3 has 10 bulleted sub-cons. So the answer, clearly, is no.
     
  7. dennis3951

    dennis3951 Initiate (0) Mar 6, 2008 New Jersey

    I don't see any connection between the "goals of craft brewing" and a poll taken on this forum. Polls are fun to take and do lead to interesting threads, so I voted for the third choice.
     
    azorie likes this.
  8. MrWilliams

    MrWilliams Zealot (625) Nov 24, 2013 Arizona

    The way I could see this working the best would be to do it by region, or possibly even by state. It would be a bit of a letdown for those who see the top 10 breweries but can't get their hands on any products.
     
    Hopdaemon39 and SaverioD like this.
  9. SaverioD

    SaverioD Initiate (0) Jun 1, 2013 Georgia

    My thinking is that polls could end up being popularity lists driven by listed biases etc and that may drive bad behaviors by the business side of breweries as well as displace the opportunities for those breweries who choose to remain regional artisans. I see that happening in my state already.

    Keep in mind, craft became a movement because the national/international brands lost sight of/ interest in low volume/high quality/high diversity beer consumers. We want to promote creative artisans and not timid, volume seekers.

    Saverio
     
    #9 SaverioD, Dec 29, 2013
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2013
    therica likes this.
  10. UCLABrewN84

    UCLABrewN84 Initiate (0) Mar 18, 2010 California

    No, we shouldn't.
     
    BeerKangaroo, SaverioD and Photekut like this.
  11. mudbug

    mudbug Pooh-Bah (1,738) Mar 27, 2009 Oregon
    Pooh-Bah Society

    No. The beer rankings are not indicative of quality, only subjective and changing tastes. Ranking breweries by the same criteria is counterproductive to the entire craft movement.
     
    SaverioD likes this.
  12. LambicPentameter

    LambicPentameter Initiate (0) Aug 29, 2012 Nebraska

    Rank breweries based on what?

    Size? Distribution footprint? Variety of styles? Number of beers in the BoF and/or 250? Highest average rAvg ranking across all their active beers? The level of innovation they go to in brewing and marketing? Level of success at the GABF or other beer competitions?

    The reason the beer "rankings" work is because the scores that drive the order are based on clearly-defined and constrained metrics, rather than people just arbitrarily saying Beer A first, then Beer B, then Beer C, etc... You could make a brewery ranking similar, but as implied above, there are just too many variables on which you can evaluate a brewing operation. It can't be broken neatly down into Appearance, Smell, Taste and Mouthfeel.
     
    BeerKangaroo and SaverioD like this.
  13. Hop-Droppen-Roll

    Hop-Droppen-Roll Initiate (0) Nov 5, 2013 Minnesota

    What I got out of his comment was a laugh at the idea that even if it's a nice and well put together list, it seems like we always tear everything apart that we find about beer elsewhere on the internet.
     
  14. Hop-Droppen-Roll

    Hop-Droppen-Roll Initiate (0) Nov 5, 2013 Minnesota

    To me, it just seems that it would put lesser breweries at a severe disadvantage, especially if they're still just finding their footing in the market. At the same time it might drive demand from high ranked breweries to an unreasonable level that they find hard to deal with. It would also spur a new subculture of BAs trading stock in those breweries. Through Fed Ex.
     
    SaverioD likes this.
  15. Uniobrew31

    Uniobrew31 Pooh-Bah (1,567) Jan 16, 2012 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah

    Too many great breweries to have a valid list. it would cumbersome to even list all 2500 or so breweries in the US let alone rank them. Cool thought though, my guess is the powers that run this site already wisely passed on the idea.
     
  16. cavedave

    cavedave Grand Pooh-Bah (4,145) Mar 12, 2009 New York
    Pooh-Bah Society Trader

    I personally think the list of cons is a perfect reason to have the rankings. All the biases you state will be reflected graphically, and those biases will become more evident to those observing the rankings, which is educational and positive.

    The list of pros contained one I agree with, they stimulate debate, and debate is good.

    The main reason to do it was in the poll itself, seeing the rankings advances the goals of craft brewing, all of which revolve around brewing better beer.

    Plus they are fun to read and think about.
     
    azorie likes this.
  17. Stevedore

    Stevedore Grand Pooh-Bah (5,072) Nov 16, 2012 Oregon
    Pooh-Bah Society Trader

    If anyone was going to do it, it should be the people who have reviewed the most beers, not just the general BA population. I'm talking people who have 500+ reviews of a good cross-section of the beer world.. most likely traders or frequent travelers.
     
  18. azorie

    azorie Pooh-Bah (2,409) Mar 18, 2006 Florida
    Pooh-Bah

    Well IMHO its too late already, the ranking of beers have been that way for years now. Review(s) while personal reflect many of the cons you already listed. IMHO. IE there is NOT best beer of any style or class for ALL.....

    For example: get 10 groups of people. review 5 beers (blind) and 5 of the same later not blind.
    change up local versus not local or in state versus 10 states away. In others words things would be all over the map Blind. but add in the factors of cost and locality etc. In other words there are lies, damn lies and statistics.

    Not sure that makes sense. but it would be a fun test.:stuck_out_tongue::grinning:

    If like get 10 folks who hate IPA or its their least favorite style, and get them to rank 20 IPA, we already seen this lately and boy the reaction of the fan boys, is predictable. of course I have my thought on what I call beer fads, but I digress.

    still I think its fun and I would vote for any member to be able to vote. or would they use reviews? and some formula? I have posted and deleted many reviews over the years, thinking who cares what I like.....and yea I tend to rate those I love all 5's its my review as I ALWAYS say.....this is not a beer judging contest.

    you know?
     
  19. SaverioD

    SaverioD Initiate (0) Jun 1, 2013 Georgia

    This would only be the case if we displayed the results with the ability to understand distribution constraints and regional biases and beer preferences etc. I am still a "definite no" on the idea though.

    Saverio
     
  20. SaverioD

    SaverioD Initiate (0) Jun 1, 2013 Georgia

    a lot of great comments. I am surprised that "who cares, its fun" plus "yes" adds up to nearly 2/3rds of the responses. But, I also think I should have added a "who cares, I wouldn't use the results" as we had a lot of page views that did not vote. So much so, that, had a fraction voted, it may have really altered the results.

    So, while "No" is the minority opinion, I am thinking it is possible that "who cares, I wouldn't use the results" could have been the runaway favorite. As I mentioned, I don't see how the list could be useful and definitely see how it could be counter-productive.

    Saverio
     
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