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Cold Weather Trading / Winter Shipping Thread

Discussion in 'Trade Talk' started by nguasta2, Dec 10, 2013.

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  1. nguasta2

    nguasta2 Initiate (0) Jun 29, 2013 Illinois

    So living in Chicago, it has the tendency to get quite frigid around this time of year. I'm getting ready to ship out some beer mail but am worried that it will freeze in the delivery truck. I imagine ABV makes a difference... Think it's a bad idea to send a standard 5.2% IPA from Chicago to NY right now? What about a 14%? That should be good right? Help...
     
  2. cavedave

    cavedave Grand Pooh-Bah (4,145) Mar 12, 2009 New York
    Pooh-Bah Society Trader

    I think this will prob be put in the beer trading forum, but the answer is beer does freeze, and caution in shipping it when the temp. is in the single numbers or below is def. advised. Even 13% ABV beer will freeze when it is below zero. Shipped packages often sit in unheated railroad cars for a couple of days during their travels.
     
  3. poobaca

    poobaca Initiate (0) Apr 23, 2013 New York

    Not sure where in NY its going to, but near me this whole week is going to be freezing or below, with it being in the teens at night. I'd wait this week out and check the weather next week.
     
  4. c64person

    c64person Initiate (0) Mar 20, 2010 Michigan

    Here is a handy ABV based freezing point chart, basically if the temp is going to be below the freezing point I wait til it warms up, as I hate replacing frozen busted bottles. http://goo.gl/ijkom0
     
  5. Rizalini

    Rizalini Initiate (0) Jan 20, 2011 Nevada

    If you have to ship them, put the bottles into a large Ziploc bag before wrapping and packing them.
     
    youbrewidrink likes this.
  6. creepinjeeper

    creepinjeeper Initiate (0) Nov 8, 2012 Missouri

    I would get the approval of my trading partner before I shipped. Better to be safe than sorry. Share the concerns of freezing and go from there. Remember, it's not just the beer freezing, it's the possibility of sudden extreme temperature change and glass shattering, also. A few extra beer mails and a little extra wait time are better than some broken bottles and potential discovery by your shipper.
    If you do decide to ship, make sure to double box and line inner box with a contractor grade garbage bag.
     
    #6 creepinjeeper, Dec 10, 2013
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2013
    mythaeus likes this.
  7. box_social

    box_social Initiate (0) Mar 6, 2013 Oregon

    i just lost a VSB, R&D Sour, older NG Thumbprints, and a few Cantillons due to freezing/exploding bottles. never again.
     
  8. maximum12

    maximum12 Grand Pooh-Bah (4,662) Jan 21, 2008 Minnesota
    Pooh-Bah Society Trader

    GetMeAnIPA and creepinjeeper like this.
  9. ufmj

    ufmj Initiate (0) Feb 15, 2013 Florida

    This made me sad.
     
    7clutch likes this.
  10. F2brewers

    F2brewers Maven (1,378) Mar 12, 2005 Massachusetts
    Society Trader

    If I may, I think that chart misses out on some details. Sure, this is TLDR for most, but if you're interested...

    <geek hat on>

    There are a number of factors at play when it comes to the temperature at which a beer will freeze. Any number of factors will depress the freezing point of water (and it's the water in the beer that we're worried about freezing).

    The two most signficant factors are alcohol content and residual sugar content.

    More minor parts are played by the container the beer is held in (specifically, the shape and smoothness of the internal surface which can inhibit/enhance crystal formation and speed of crystallization) and the internal pressure in the container (e.g., fiizzy macro lager versus rich porter where the ideal volume of dissolved CO2 may be 2.8 vs. 1.5).

    Also, the container closure is important...it is possible to actually take the beer below it's calculated freezing point so long as it's not shocked and it's under pressure. You've probably seen those Youtube videos of supercooled beer being tapped on a table and freezing in 30 seconds. If you've got leakage (bad cork or leaky crown), that hurts your proposition.

    I'm probably missing some others, but you get the general idea.

    Regarding alcohol content and residual sugar content, a general formula you can use to determine the freezing point of your beer is given by the following:

    Tf = - ((0.04 x OG) + (0.42 x ABV) + 0.2)

    where Tf is the freezing temperature (ºC) OG is the original gravity (in degrees plato) and ABV is alcohol by volume.

    To convert specific gravity (if you have that measurement) to degrees Plato using a reasonably accurate calculation (since degrees Plato were derived empirically):

    SG = 259 / (259-degrees Plato) at 60ºF (15.5ºC).

    If you want to use a polynomial fit and linear regression for extreme accuracy be my guest.

    Also, to convert ºC to ºF: ºF = (ºC x 9/5) + 32

    This assumes that there's nothing else other than sugar dissolved in your beer which may alter the freezing point. Of course you'll have a starches, hop extracts and acids, etc. Anything that's not fermentable is ignored in this calculation. For some beers, this can be an important factor.

    This also doesn't take into account the addition of supplemental sugars (i.e., fruit, honey, etc.) in subsequent fermentation steps (though you *could* backcalculate and add some estimates into your OG if you were diligent and/or knew the details of the brewing process).

    You get the point...it's an approximation and there are plenty of other things (e.g,. exposure time, packing configuration) that can alter your results.

    <geek hat off>

    Anyway, if you use the calculation above, we can demonstrate two extremes:

    1) Cantillon lambic brewed at ~ 12º Plato and finishing at ~ 5%ABV (no fruit added) will freeze around 27ºF
    2) Black Tuesday brewed at ~ 33-36º (?) Plato and finishing at ~ 19%ABV will freeze around 15ºF

    Bottom Line: if its questionable (and especially if you can't replace the bottles), hold off.

    -K.
     
  11. HeadyTheElder

    HeadyTheElder Initiate (0) Nov 3, 2012 Louisiana
    Trader


    What type of temps did it go through?
     
  12. DimensionX

    DimensionX Initiate (0) Oct 1, 2010 Oregon

    Lighting a candle for you.
     
  13. box_social

    box_social Initiate (0) Mar 6, 2013 Oregon

    under 30 the whole way and over a weekend
     
  14. HeadyTheElder

    HeadyTheElder Initiate (0) Nov 3, 2012 Louisiana
    Trader

    Just under 30?

    That's not too extreme at all. Damn.
     
  15. maDUECEgunner

    maDUECEgunner Initiate (0) May 23, 2013 Minnesota

    Umm... that's cold? I don't think so. It didn't even get above 0 today with -30 wind chills. My beer froze on the way home. As long as the beer warms up slowly, its fine
     
  16. maximum12

    maximum12 Grand Pooh-Bah (4,662) Jan 21, 2008 Minnesota
    Pooh-Bah Society Trader

    Highlighted the killing part of that sentence.
     
    gregkoko likes this.
  17. box_social

    box_social Initiate (0) Mar 6, 2013 Oregon

    i'm not talking about what people decide is "cold" to them, i'm just relaying what happened in my individual situation.
     
    StubFaceJoe likes this.
  18. mythaeus

    mythaeus Pooh-Bah (2,050) Jul 22, 2013 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah Trader

    I think there is an underlying question of whether or not the cause was "under 30-degree" or some other packing/shipping mishaps. Did you get your package back or was it discarded by the shipper?
     
  19. box_social

    box_social Initiate (0) Mar 6, 2013 Oregon

    my shipper sent via UPS and when it arrived it Portland, it was marked damaged and tossed out. we have had unseasonably cold weather lately, highs in the 20s and lows in the low teens over the last week or so. i send my box via FedEx and my box was marked damaged when it arrived in IL, the remains are being sent back to me. i do some pretty extensive packing and used an oversized box to send three 750s. i find it very unlikely that packing or handling was the issue, but maybe it's just a shitty coincidence.
     
  20. mythaeus

    mythaeus Pooh-Bah (2,050) Jul 22, 2013 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah Trader

    That really sucks! Major heartbreaking loss for sure.

    I'm not looking to blame you or your partner for losing shipments, but I am curious if you both bagged up each bottle with Ziploc and then put the entire shipment inside a trash bag? I lost my very first trade via UPS because of not doing that. I immediately Ziploc and trash bag every shipment ever since. It recently saved me from losing a shipment that contained a Cherry Rye, something I couldn't replace.
     
    box_social and creepinjeeper like this.
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