Need Yeast advice for first batch of Dogfish 60 min IPA

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by Irishsilk, Jan 26, 2013.

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  1. Irishsilk

    Irishsilk Initiate (0) Jan 25, 2013 Connecticut

    For my first ever brew I decided to try a dogfish head 60 min, with a recipe I got out of Extreme Brewing. The recipe called for WYeast Ringwood 1187. I'm just wondering if one pack will be enough, if I need a yeast starter, how long to get it started before pitching, etc. Any other advice for my first batch would be much appreciated.
     
  2. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,043) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah Society

    You can make it without a starter, but it would be better with a starter. Here's a calculator to help you figure out the size of the starter...
    http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html
    Select 'Intermittent Shaking' in the dropdown as the starter type. This will allow you to get the same number of cells with a smaller starter than you would have needed with a 'Simple' starter. Intermittent Shaking just means to give it a swirl every once in a while. You'll probably want to start your starter about two days before brewing, if you are just going to pour the whole thing into your wort. Three or four days before brewing if you plan to cold crash and decant the excess liquid from your starter (so that the yeast goes into your beer wort, but most of the starter liquid does not).

    Read this...
    www.howtobrew.com
     
  3. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,181) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah Society

    I am assuming that your beer will have an Original Gravity > 1.060. For a beer of this gravity a starter is highly recommended. I would personally recommend that you make a starter for this particular batch.

    For the starters I make, I find that I reach a ‘peak’ at around 18-24 hours (I pitch the entire contents of the starter).

    Below is what Jamil Zainasheff discusses in his article Making a Starter that was published in Zymurgy magazine:

    “I like to pitch starters while they're still very active and as soon as the bulk of reproduction is finished, usually within 12 to 18 hours. This is really convenient, because I can make a starter the morning of the brew day or the night before and it is ready to go by the time the batch of wort is ready.”

    Cheers!
     
  4. WickedSluggy

    WickedSluggy Savant (1,105) Nov 21, 2008 Texas

    I prefer VikeMans proposed technique. With all due respect to Mr Zainesheffs recommendations as posted above, I disagree with what he said in that article. I prefer the technique that Zainesheff and Chris White discuss in their book "Yeast", which recommends allowing yeast to settle and then decanting the liquid form the starter first. This means you'll probably want to make you starter a couple days before brew day. This is particularly the case if you make larger starters. You really don't want to pour a 2 liter starter into your 5 gallon batch (that's over 10% of the volume of your batch - Yuk!)

    I'd do, at least, a 2 liter starter for a relatively high gravity, highly hopped beer like an IPA. The Mr Malty calculator simply isn't accurate. All the data I have read indicates that a one liter starter increases your (one vile) cell count by about 50%. If you make a one liter starter with a vile of 100B cells, you only get 150B cells. A 2 liter starter will produce 200B cells. That's the minimum that I would use in an IPA. These days I find I get much better fermentations if I actually produce a 3 liter starter for such a beer. When I do bigger starters I get noticeably quicker fermentations and really clean beer. If you’re going to make a starter, you might as make one that will give you the best results.
     
  5. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,181) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah Society

    “All the data I have read indicates that a one liter starter increases your (one vile) cell count by about 50%. If you make a one liter starter with a vile of 100B cells, you only get 150B cells. A 2 liter starter will produce 200B cells.” That is certainly the case for what Mr. Malty terms a ‘simple starter. A ‘simple starter’ is where you just pitch the liquid yeast into a starter with no steps taken to provide aeration.

    A very simple means to add some aeration to a starter is the method called intermittent shaking. Below is from the Zymurgy article written by Jamil Zainasheff:

    “Shaking the starter as much as possible, every hour or two, makes a large difference in the amount of yeast growth and health. In my tests, vigorously shaking a starter every hour resulted in approximately double the number of cells versus a non-shaken starter.”

    So, if a homebrewer is willing to shake their starter every once in a while they will realize increased yeast cell growth.

    As a quantitative exercise, the yeast calculator on the Mr. Malty website indicates that a yeast starter of size 1.16 liters will result in 201 Billion yeast cells if intermittent shaking is employed.

    As regards whether to pitch the entire yeast starter contents vs. performing a chill down and decant process that is a matter of personal preference. The advantage of pitching the starter at high krausen is that the yeast is at the peak of activity and will get the fermentation started in an optimum manner. Pitching a yeast starter of 1-2 liters will have minimal flavor impact to a batch of beer in my opinion.

    Cheers!
     
  6. premierpro

    premierpro Savant (1,060) Mar 21, 2009 Michigan

    My experience with the Ringwood strain is that it floculates before it is finished. I strongly recomend swirling your fermenter 5-7 days after the start of your fermentation to re-suspend your yeast. Good luck.
     
  7. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,181) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah Society

    Excellent point!

    The Ringwood strain is notorious for producing a lot of diacetyl during the early stages of fermentation. You really, really want to make sure that it doesn't floculate too soon so that the yeast can 'clean up' all of the diacetyl that it has produced.

    Cheers!
     
  8. WickedSluggy

    WickedSluggy Savant (1,105) Nov 21, 2008 Texas

    I'm not just trying to be argumentative, but I'm just going to repeat that I wouldn't add 10% to the volume of a batch and expect it not to have an impact on the flavor of my beer. A half gallon of water would effect it. A half gallon of smelly starter liquid definately will. The rule of thumb that I've seen is 5% or less of the batch size is okay. I used to used to rely on a 1 liter starter for most beers and sometimes pitched the whole liter. But now I tell everyone who will listen that they will typically improve their beer by pitching from larger starters (I have actually never made a starter without a stir plate) When I make lagers...I actually use a 5 gallon carboy to make my starters!
     
  9. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,181) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah Society

    I understand that you have an opinion here and I recognize it.

    Perhaps it would be appropriate for me to detail my practices as regards yeast starters. When I make higher gravity ales such as IPAs I make 1.5 liter yeast starters using the intermittent yeast starter method. I also pitch the entire contents at high krausen. It has been my personal experience that this process produces very, very good beers with no discernible off flavors.

    If I were to produce larger starters (e.g., bigger than 2 liters) or utilize a stir plate (which would result in oxidized flavors) I would not pitch the contents of the starter. For those instances I would practice the chill down and decant method.

    Maybe what Jamil writes in the book Brewing Classic Styles would be helpful here?

    “A 2 liter starter made with healthy yeast will reach its maximum cell density within 12 to 18 hours. If you are starting with a very small amount of yeast or low-viability yeast, it could take 24 hours or more to reach maximum cell density. Once the point is reached, you can pitch the entire starter into your wort.

    Of course, if you have a large starter volume in relation to your batch of beer, or a starter that has continuously aerated, then you probably don’t want to pitch the entire thing into your wort. Adding a large starter or a heavily oxidized starter to your wort can alter the flavor of the finished beer.” He then goes on to describe the chill down and decant method.

    I stand by my previous statement of:” Pitching a yeast starter of 1-2 liters will have minimal flavor impact to a batch of beer in my opinion.”

    I can understand that for your homebrewing practice:

    · “pitching from larger starters”
    · “I have actually never made a starter without a stir plate”

    That the cool down and decant method is the preferred practice.

    I would encourage other homebrewers that if you make larger starters and/or utilize a stir plate in making your starters that you should also chill down and decant your starters prior to pitching.

    Cheers!
     
  10. Irishsilk

    Irishsilk Initiate (0) Jan 25, 2013 Connecticut

    Thanks for all the advice, still having some trouble though.
    The Original Gravity is 1.065 (final 1.017)
    I'm using a wyeast smackpack that has 100B cells.
    Mr. Malty recommends 1.62 liters of starter, everything I've found online says to make a starter with 1/2 cup of DME for every cup of water, since this is roughly 7 cups do I need to use 3.5 cups of DME, or the DME included in the volume? I'm also preparing my yeast starter now and planning to actually brew Thursday. Will this produce too much/little yeast? Finally when it says "shake intermittently" exactly how often does that mean?

    Thanks again!
     
  11. pweis909

    pweis909 Grand Pooh-Bah (3,176) Aug 13, 2005 Wisconsin
    Pooh-Bah Society

    Good point. I've used this strain once and had nice results. But the strain is notorious for leaving behind diacetyl because of early floccing.

    To the OP: A starter will help alleviate this diacetyl issue, and gentle swirling to resupsend the yeast should help. Also, I like the 60 min IPA. Hope it turns out great. Have fun and welcome to the hobby.
     
  12. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,181) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah Society

    “I've found online says to make a starter with 1/2 cup of DME for every cup of water, since this is roughly 7 cups do I need to use 3.5 cups of DME”

    Well, the mixture rule that I personally utilize is 100 gm. of DME per liter of water. I make 1.5 quart starters (I ‘round off’ and assume that a quart = a liter) and I add 150 gm. of DME.

    If you don’t have the means to weigh your DME then another ‘rule of thumb’ is that you utilize ½ cup of DME per liter. So, for a 1.5 quart (liter) starter measure ¾ cup of DME

    So, in your above sentence it really should have read ½ cup DME per quart (liter) of water.

    “I'm also preparing my yeast starter now and planning to actually brew Thursday. Will this produce too much/little yeast?” A 1.5 quart (liter) starter will produce an appropriate amount of yeast; just make sure you give it at least 18 hours (going longer is not a problem).

    “Finally when it says "shake intermittently" exactly how often does that mean?” I basically shake it once an hour when I am awake and around. The more you shake it the better but I wouldn’t obsess about it. Once your starter is at the 18-24 hour mark there is no need to continue the shaking; the yeast will have reached maximum cell count by then.

    Good luck with your IPA! Remember to rouse your fermenter later in the fermentation (day 5 or so) to ensure that the yeast doesn’t flocculate it too soon.

    Cheers!
     
  13. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,043) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah Society

    It's better to measure by weight. (I don't know volumes of DME, but your 1/2 cup per cup is too much.) But however you measure, you would scale your DME right along with the water volume. I use about 14 ounces of DME per gallon.

    Chances are very good that your starter will be ready by Thursday. Also, you can't produce any more yeast than the sugars from the DME will allow, i.e. letting the starter go longer won't produce 'too much' yeast, if that's what you meant.

    Every once in a while, give your flask (or whatever you are using) a swirl. I'd say at least evey hour during the day. More often if you can.
     
  14. Irishsilk

    Irishsilk Initiate (0) Jan 25, 2013 Connecticut


    Starter is complete and looking good. What do you think about transferring to a secondary fermenter? The recipe calls for this, however I read online that this isn't necessary for 5 gallon batches.
     
  15. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,181) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah Society

    Short answer: I never transfer my ales to a secondary.

    Longer answer: transferring to a secondary has a risk (albeit a slight risk) of oxidation. There is no genuine ‘benefit’ to transferring to a secondary so why take a risk of oxidizing your beer?

    So, just keep your beer in your primary and forget the secondary for your IPA.

    Cheers!
     
  16. Irishsilk

    Irishsilk Initiate (0) Jan 25, 2013 Connecticut

    So I brewed my first batch last night. Everything was going perfect until I transferred to the carboy and realized there was only maybe 3 gallons of wort, after starting with 6. Is it normal to boil off this much? Should I have had the pot covered the entire time it was boiling? I'm not sure if I should have but I added a little over a gallon of water that I had boiled. This brought the OG up to about 1.06, where it should have been.
     
  17. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,181) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
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    “ …there was only maybe 3 gallons of wort, after starting with 6.” Are you sure about your estimate of 3 gallons (and did you really start off with 6 gallons)?

    Boil off is very homebrewing system dependent (dimensions of the kettle, output of the burner, how vigorous the boil is conducted, etc.). A ‘rule of thumb’ is that with a one hour boil you should boil off something like 1-1.5 gallons. If you truly started off with 6 gallons of wort I would have expected that after an hour of boil you would have ended up with something like 4.5 – 5 gallons.

    Cheers!
     
  18. Irishsilk

    Irishsilk Initiate (0) Jan 25, 2013 Connecticut

    Ya hard to say I guess, could have been closer to 4. My carboy is 6.5 gallons and it only looked a little over halfway. I used a growler to measure out 6 gallons so that could have been off. Im also using the stove to heat so took forever to get up to temp. I also had it at 150 for 15 mins, boiling a total of 75 mins, then settling for another 20, so maybe I lost a little more water during that time. Either way the damage is done now, hoping to get a new carboy and start a new batch next week in case this one turns out awful. Thanks for the help!
     
  19. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Grand Pooh-Bah (3,181) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah Society

    I don’t use a carboy for primary fermentation. It might be helpful to you to make 1 gallon graduated lines on you carboy using indelible ink? You could add a gallon of water at a time (use a 1 gallon water jug) and mark the level. In this way you will have an accurate idea of how much wort you have in your carboy for future batches. If in a future batch you are low you can just add more top off water.

    Cheers!
     
  20. pweis909

    pweis909 Grand Pooh-Bah (3,176) Aug 13, 2005 Wisconsin
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    Monitoring the boil is one of my tasks on brew day. I usually turn my stove burners on and come back every 10 min. It takes about 30 min to get to boil. Once it starts boiling, I measure depth to water level in kettle and calculate volume of wort based on volume of a cylinder. I start the timer for 30 min. At that point, I remeasure the liquid level and calculate a boil off rate and use that to figure out if my final volume for the next 60 min will be where I want it. From there, I readjust how much longer I will need to boil and plan my hop additions accordingly. If I boiled off too much (never happens to me in those 30 min), I can add some water back.
     
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