Competition Feedback

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by utahbeerdude, Aug 23, 2012.

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  1. utahbeerdude

    utahbeerdude Maven (1,374) May 2, 2006 Utah

    So I recently entered a homebrew contest (my first) with 6 beers. I did this for a couple of reasons: (1) to see how the whole thing worked, and (2) to get some feedback on my beers. As a bonus, one of the brews (Belgian Wit) garnered a ribbon. :slight_smile: But the purpose of my post is to get some responses to the following question: What is the most useful thing that you have learned from the feedback that you have received from a contest?

    I'll start. One of my beers I entered was a Bo. Pils. Now one of my major homebrewing goals is to be able to brew a good pilsner. The feedback I got on this was that the part of the makeup of the aroma is butyric acid. Now this can come from contamination, among other things. For me this was key, as previous to this I had no idea what butyric acid smells like. Now I know. Your turn.
     
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  2. NiceFly

    NiceFly Initiate (0) Dec 22, 2011 Tajikistan

    I think the most useful thing I have learned from never entering a contest is that I just do not give a shit what other people think.
     
  3. yinzer

    yinzer Initiate (0) Nov 24, 2006 Pennsylvania

    I learned that all of the Saisons served at Moeder Lambic in Brussels aren't orange enough. I'm never going to that place again!!!!!
     
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  4. OddNotion

    OddNotion Pooh-Bah (1,853) Nov 1, 2009 New Jersey
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    I've mentioned this in other posts i have made but the must useful feedback i have received was with regards to my yeast management. Since then i have been making bigger starters, built a fermentation chamber, began oxygenating with pure o2 and using yeast nutrient. While i don't care so much about the opinions of the beer overall, i do seek an objective opinion which is hard top get when its really just friends and family drinking my beer.
     
  5. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,043) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
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    One thing to keep in mind when considering judges' feedback is that they are fallible. If they point out a flaw, objectively taste your beer with that in mind and see if you agree. Have others taste it (a homebrew club is perfect for this) and see if they agree. Consider whether two or three judges picked up on the same thing or whether it was just one.

    The funniest thing I have read on scoresheets was from two judges, same competition, same IPA...
    Judge #1: Too much hop aroma.
    Jusge #2: Needs more hop aroma.

    Edit: I just re-read what I posted and it sounds like I'm saying 'judges suck,' which was not my intent at all. I think many BJCP are extremely good, and although anyone can make a mistake, I think they are generally very good at separating great beers from bad ones.
     
  6. jlpred55

    jlpred55 Initiate (0) Jul 26, 2006 Iowa

    I just had a similar thing happen on a Bitter which the scores were 13 points apart:
    Judge(Master BJCP) #1: Fantastic bitter to malt balance, right on style. Body is smooth but might be carbed a little high for style.
    Judge(no cert) #2: Not to style, needs more hops, malt is weak- body and carb, right on.

    That is pretty much word for word. I just laugh when that happens- I don't really care I would rather learn something to improve my beers. So I will not carb so high next time!
     
  7. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,043) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
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    At least you know they were keeping their eyes on their own papers! Sometimes I've seen sheets that were virtual carbon copies of each other (typically when there's a master judge and an apprentice/non-judge), which I guess should be expected to some extent. I don't really know the protocol for discussion between judges before the BOS round. I know we have some judges here who could chime in.
     
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  8. MMAJYK

    MMAJYK Initiate (0) Jun 26, 2007 Georgia

    I just like to win stuff. F the feedback. I'm a certified judge and have a lot of friends that are judges ranked higher than me, so I can get all the feedback I want pretty much anytime I want. They can't give me medals, though. :sunglasses:
     
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  9. stakem

    stakem Grand Pooh-Bah (4,070) Feb 20, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah Society Trader

    Senario 1: A couple years ago I was on a hefeweizen kick brewing them weekly. I did a series to test out all the weizen yeast I could get my hands on and I varied the fermenting temps once I narrowed down the ones I liked the most. When I finally nailed down what I considered the perfect blend of fruit, clove and banana components, i brewed it again to see if my process was repeatable. I entered it in a competition and this was what my feedback looked like.

    Judge A: Awesome beer, I would buy cases of this if made public. Will you share your recipe?
    Judge B: Good blend of yeast, wheat, fruit and spice. Enjoyable experience, highly drinkable.
    Judge C: Sulfur bomb, DMS, Diacetyl, undercarbed and not attenuated. Yeast was underpitched or not a clean strain. Please revisit sanitation practices.

    Senario 2: I entered an export stout and the feedback sheets I got were for an american wheat ale. Somehow my paperwork got mixed up with someone elses.

    Senario 3: I entered a berliner weisse and was told my beer was undrinkable because it had a lemony tart edge to it which indicated an obvious infection in my wheat beer.
     
  10. sarcastro

    sarcastro Savant (1,097) Sep 20, 2006 Michigan

    At least someone admits to it. I have no problem with this. I get annoyed at the people that win all the time, and say they only do it for the feedback. They are delusional. I heard Jamil say that in one of his podcasts. He is delusional if he believes that he enters competitions just for the feedback. I like to to get good feedback, but that is hit and miss. My competitive nature wants medals.
     
  11. stakem

    stakem Grand Pooh-Bah (4,070) Feb 20, 2009 Pennsylvania
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    I missed the edit window for my post above. I wanted to add that I really appreciate unbiased feedback and think competitions are worthwhile for that when done right by capeable/knowledgeable people. There is an opportunity for you to learn a lot. But when you have a bad experience and feel like you not only wasted your beer but had to pay a fee to give it away, it can be disheartening. I wish I could interview the judges before submitting my beer. If I mention berliner weisse and they have no idea what im talking about, I can walk away without wasting anyones time. Just my 2 cents.
     
  12. DSlim71

    DSlim71 Initiate (0) Mar 3, 2010 New Jersey

    All this brewing and you still can't avoid infection? Should have learned by now.:stuck_out_tongue:
     
  13. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,043) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
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    Must have been an early podcast. I'm pretty sure Jamil eventually stopped entering competitions because he realized he was just doing it for the awards.

    But there are some people who do very well who really are doing it for feedback. At least I think they are, because they win and don't feel the need tell people about it.
     
  14. yinzer

    yinzer Initiate (0) Nov 24, 2006 Pennsylvania

    I wonder with a situation like this that some feedback should be sent to the organizers of the competition?

    I'm sure that different regions/clubs have varied expertise. Someone told me once that I should be a judge, while I've traveled a lot and tasted a lot of beer and I don't think that I have the knowledge to be a judge. But what I worry about that with my lack of knowledge that I still might know more than who I'm pared with.
     
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  15. leedorham

    leedorham Initiate (0) Apr 27, 2006 Washington

    I've learned to lie about the recipe and the date it was brewed.
     
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  16. hopfenunmaltz

    hopfenunmaltz Pooh-Bah (2,611) Jun 8, 2005 Michigan
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    You just like having your picture taken between Gordon and Phil.
     
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  17. hopfenunmaltz

    hopfenunmaltz Pooh-Bah (2,611) Jun 8, 2005 Michigan
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    13 points is way too high of a difference. Most comps have something like a 5 point difference. If over that, the judges talk it over and reconcile the difference to get to 5 (or whatever diff.).

    Everybody has different tastes. What would be thin and underhopped with one judge, might be perfect for the judge that has been to England and had real Bitter from the cask.

    I also often give more weight to the higher ranking judge's comments, but not always.
     
  18. hopfenunmaltz

    hopfenunmaltz Pooh-Bah (2,611) Jun 8, 2005 Michigan
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    Jamil has stated that he has retired from homebrewing competitions. He will probably still compete, but with Heretic Brewing beers at GABF.
     
  19. BobCS

    BobCS Initiate (0) Sep 15, 2006 New York

    When I judge and find my comments are wildly different than another judges, I try to talk it out and develop a consensus if possible and I think this is common among most judges I know. Consensus isn't always possible, nor should it be, but usually some discussion can resolve contradictory comments.

    Some judges are better than others, and no doubt you'll sometimes get feedback that isn't useful, or is even laughable. Sometimes it's the judges own fault for judging a category they have no real knowledge of though, as volunteers, judges can get pressed for service in areas outside of their comfort zone. Another problem is palate fatigue - your ability to detect hop aroma might not be so great after you've had 8 or 12 other IPAs.

    I've judged with some real asses on occasion, but most judges really try to be as helpful, constructive, and objective as they can be. I know it's not necessarily much consolation when you've paid your fee, entered your beer and are scratching your head wondering what to make of your judging sheets. I will say that the quality of beers in competitions can be amazing, and if you make it in the top three that is often quite an accomplishment.
     
  20. sarcastro

    sarcastro Savant (1,097) Sep 20, 2006 Michigan

    I respect him for realizing that. I might have interpreted the wrong way, but that is how he came off when I heard it.

    I have no doubt there are people that are doing just for feedback. This was commenting on people that enter crazy amounts of beers time and time again. They are obviously doing for more than feedback. Honestly I have no issue with this. I get annoyed if they have a holier than thou attitude that they are above medals and just doing for feedback, when that is obviously not the case.
     
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