Heady Topper Clone?

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by geneseohawk, Mar 24, 2012.

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  1. theveganbrewer

    theveganbrewer Initiate (0) Jun 4, 2012 Oregon

    I have been in touch with John himself. Lab tested IBUs are 75-80, not 120 or whatever the website says. NZ hop use was "quite possible" according to source. If it is, the brewery has been known to use Moteuka and Riwaka. (sp?) You can get 80 IBU with all your hops at 5 minutes or less and one bittering charge at 60, or perhaps 90 minutes.

    I have made about 2 trillion cells of Conan yeast. It is unique and does impart a distinct peachy flavor on the brew.
     
    skivtjerry likes this.
  2. koopa

    koopa Initiate (0) Apr 20, 2008 New Jersey

    Thanks for the feedback! My thoughts were that the 119 ibu quote on the alchemist blog was the "calculated ibu" rating and that 75-80 would be the actual (lab tested). What beers have they "been known to use Moteuka and Riwaka" in? Not entirely doubting the claim, just more curious as I've never "known" that and have been going to the Alchemist Brew Pub since 2008. Then again I never asked about NZ hops! Of course you can get 80 ibu's at 5 minutes or less with 1 bittering charge at 60-90, but as John told you its better not to use real hops at that time frame if you want to produce Heady Topper. So the alternative to a bittering charge + late additions would be using way too much hops to prove cost effective at 5 minutes or making late additions from 20 minutes - 5 minutes like I did.
     
  3. theveganbrewer

    theveganbrewer Initiate (0) Jun 4, 2012 Oregon

    From what I've read they have done a couple of collabs with other breweries and they used NZ hops in them. I asked if they used NZ hops in heady topper and got the response I posted.

    In light of not having extract, I am just thinking adding 1.5 to 2 ounces of hops at 90 minutes vs. adding 9.5 ounces at 20 & 10 would be closer to the original but that is just based on aromatics, because a 30 minute whirlpool addition will come out somewhere around the same as a 15 minute boil and you wind up with similar IBU figures. For every 10 degrees under boiling I think I read you lose 1/2 the utilization. I normally whirlpool around 190-200.

    I am of the belief that anything north of 10 minutes loses quite a bit of its aroma. Boiling also produces a different hop taste compared to steeped hops.

    My biggest issue here is figuring out how he is calculating the bitterness, and if he has a formula for the whirlpool hops. If it is true what some have studied and said, and you can extract a fair amount of bitterness from the whirlpool, it might not be necessary to have so many 20 and 10 minute additions and still get the same results with even more aroma.

    Do you calculate for whirlpool bitterness additions? If so, what's your method?
     
  4. skivtjerry

    skivtjerry Pooh-Bah (1,841) Mar 10, 2006 Vermont
    Pooh-Bah Society

    I googled for a formula but didn't find anything my brain can handle at 5:30 am. I have a couple of textbooks at work that I hope to look at today. My guesstimation is that an addition you let sit at just below boiling for 20 minutes after flameout ('hop stand') will give about the same IBU as a 5-10 minute boil, depending on how much you stir, etc. Pros will usually have higher utilization due to surface to volume ratio, just like in the boil. Also, their whirlpools are in constant motion; we often just let the kettle sit, or stir occasionally.

    One pertinent fact is that alpha acid isomerization decreases dramatically below 170F and is nearly (but not entirely!) nonexistant below 140F. However, you can still extract oils and other components at these reduced temperatures. For my last couple of IPA's I have done half of my whirlpool addition at flameout, chilled to 165-170F with my immersion chiller, added the remainder and let sit for 20-30 minutes. This gives a lot of flavor and aroma with little additional bitterness. Flavor/aroma is more refined than dry hopping but still very much in your face. I'm still playing with this and have not tried many varieties but I think it might be one key to that 'hop juice' flavor we want here.
     
  5. koopa

    koopa Initiate (0) Apr 20, 2008 New Jersey

    This is more along the lines of what I do. I haven't really got into whirlpooling yet myself though. Instead I just do a 5 minute hop addition and then after flame out I recirculate my wort through my plate chiller and back into my boil kettle until the wort in the kettle is down to about the 120-130F range. I then add my "flame out" hops at that temperature range and do about a 10 minute hop stand. So I'm not getting any ibu's from that addition because of the cooler temperature I do it at. Still tweaking this process though.
     
  6. DNuggs

    DNuggs Initiate (0) Apr 13, 2006 Massachusetts

    I've only tried replicating this once and the result was an awesome beer though it wasn't Heady. I think next time I try it, I'm going to drop to 190 for a 10 minute whirlpool and then pump through my newly acquired hop rocket :-) into the chiller and then fermentor
     
  7. nathanjohnson

    nathanjohnson Initiate (0) Aug 5, 2007 Vermont
    Deactivated

    You really need the Conan yeast to come close.

    I made a hoppy wheat with simcoe and amarillo, fermented with Conan. Awesome beer, with a definite peach note from the yeast.
     
  8. Bay01

    Bay01 Initiate (0) Nov 19, 2008 Illinois

    Anybody know if Conan has a close commercial relative? Is it a derivative of something more readily available? If NZ hops are indeed used it wouldn't be one of the new varieties such as Jade or Riwaka - Nelson maybe?
     
  9. danedelman

    danedelman Initiate (0) Apr 3, 2011 Pennsylvania

    I just did a great clone, yet without realizing it.....

    Pearl Malt
    Amarillo
    Cascade
    Simcoe
    Chinook
    Hop Shot is being discussed and purchased for the fermentor but not sure.
     
  10. theveganbrewer

    theveganbrewer Initiate (0) Jun 4, 2012 Oregon

    I am not aware of anything close commercially. The attenuation is crazy and the aroma is quite peachy.
     
  11. kjyost

    kjyost Initiate (0) May 4, 2008 Canada (MB)

    What is the goal of this? I am pretty sure it doesn't add IBUs unless boiled...
     
  12. theveganbrewer

    theveganbrewer Initiate (0) Jun 4, 2012 Oregon

    That is pretty close to what I've come to using. I have tried some at 200, some at 190, and just recently I did some at 150. Your hop juice line is pretty accurate description of the final result. The technique seems to do a good job of melding the hop flavor into the wort. I prefer 190 for 30 minutes.
     
  13. barfdiggs

    barfdiggs Initiate (0) Mar 22, 2011 California
    Deactivated

    Its CO extracted hop oils & resins, so it has aroma and flavor of standard additions, so could be used as "wet-dry hop" I guess, however, its thick as hell and gooey, and would probably need to be dissolved in some warm water, potentially defeating the purpose.

    A better alternative would be straight up hop oil extract (Steam Distilled or vaccum distilled under CO2), although I don't know if they're available to non-commercial buyers.
     
  14. danedelman

    danedelman Initiate (0) Apr 3, 2011 Pennsylvania

    Resin. Sticky hop extract all over the tonque. yummy.
     
  15. barfdiggs

    barfdiggs Initiate (0) Mar 22, 2011 California
    Deactivated

    Have you actually tasted hop shot? It tastes like shit.
     
    NiceFly likes this.
  16. danedelman

    danedelman Initiate (0) Apr 3, 2011 Pennsylvania

    no. maybe I will go without on this brew then. too good to ruin at this point. Used 5 oz of hops in a 5gallon batch just for dry hopping.
     
  17. barfdiggs

    barfdiggs Initiate (0) Mar 22, 2011 California
    Deactivated

    Good idea. Hopshot is great in the kettle for getting bitterness and minimizing any vegetal/plant matter flavors from over use of hops during bittering (e.g. no plant material).

    If you want to go nuts, you can always pull your dry hops and then do a second, third or fourth dry hopping. You can get some nice layered flavor and aroma this way.
     
  18. atomeyes

    atomeyes Initiate (0) Jul 13, 2011 Canada (ON)

    interesting read today.
    dude from Crooked Stave suggests they use hop extracts.
    also the suggestion that the hops are NOT added at traditional bittering times, and that most of it is end boil or dry hopping (flavour vs bitter)
     
  19. theveganbrewer

    theveganbrewer Initiate (0) Jun 4, 2012 Oregon

    He does not FWH, uses hop extract for bittering, and makes all the other hop additions at 5 minutes or less. He uses 6 hops. He whirlpools and dry hops and uses a unique peachy yeast strain that has +80% attenuation. These are the facts as given by the head brewer John.

    What we don't know is what the hop schedule is from 5 minutes in.
     
  20. danedelman

    danedelman Initiate (0) Apr 3, 2011 Pennsylvania

    Heady Recipe(5 gallon batch)although ABV is a bit off. I am ending up with 7.1% due to my high mash efficiency and low FG.

    10lbs Pearl Malt
    1lb of Dextrose into Primary fermenter after krauzen began to fall
    60 min additions
    1oz simcoe
    1oz chinook
    15min additions
    1oz cascade
    1oz amarillo
    1oz simcoe
    5min additions
    1oz cascade
    1oz amarillo
    flame out(random hops my bro in law had .33oz of each)
    galena
    ahtanum
    cascade
    nugget
    dry hop
    2oz cascade
    2oz amarillo
    1oz simcoe


    1.064 OG and FG of 1.010

    7.1%abv
     
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